About swiss road safety policies

seven
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About swiss road safety policies

Message par seven » 12 oct. 2015 02:16

edit: I hope google translate works ok with this for you.
I can speak French, but not well enough for this subject.
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Hello fellow travellers and drivers,

I see that the politicians' replies include vast claims about reductions in KSI (Killed & Seriously Injured).

I also see that they provide no evidence whatever for their claims - they are in fact without foundation.

I have enquired in to the availability of Swiss accident data and have been informed I must pay 200 francs per hour and that they will only answer specific questions from the data. They have therefore refused to make public the essential data about accidents and keep it secret, except to publish as and how suits their purposes.

I have evidence from three continents that speed limits and traps do not work to save lives, that they even cause deaths and serious injury and they profit only the vested interests.

Speed management can work in certain specific circumstances usually to make the traffic go faster where there is congestion. That congestion is the only way in which traffic is slowed and then there are reduced KSI because often the traffic is not moving at all. The autoroute around Lausanne is not a suitable excuse to make the rest of the country suffer.

I was flashed yesterday doing 75kph in an 80. (yes! less than the limit). I went to Sion to complain and the judicaturist there could find no record and said we will wait and see.

History shows that "the people" cannot be terrorised and will not submit to excessive punishment and fear, which are the tools the politicians have actually said they are using.

The Human Rights laws which even Switzerland has signed run counter to these regulations. The Via Sicura papers claim that their penalties are a special case, which means they are well aware they are breaking their own laws of proportionality.

The politicians are setting out to use the Police as weapons against the people and this will change the attitude of the people so that the police become the enemy. I discussed this with a policeman and clearly he does not want this to happen, but he has to follow orders (of the politicians).

The placement of radar traps in places where there is open road and it is clearly safe to make progress is and always will be where the police place the traps, because it is easier for them to acquire the statistics to say they are catching many (safe) drivers so they must be doing a good job.

The secrecy of the location of traps is intended to evoke fear and to raise money at the same time. Claims that these are to prevent accidents are lies because to even claim to prevent accidents with speed traps you have to place them where people know about them or there is no deterrent - without deterrent there is no purpose except raising money from the innocent. Creating a general atmosphere of fear in society for doing no harm is plainly wrong.

I watch the traffic around me and all of it all the time is exceeding the limits which are all set far too low. Italy is even worse, no one at all takes any notice and ultimately that will happen in Switzerland. We just need enough damage yet to be done to the family and business structures of the country, enough people to have their lives destroyed when they have occasioned no harm to anyone at all.

There is a political trap in the inclusion of "speeders" in the context of drink driving, drugs and crime. All these inflict great harm on others."Speeding" is a fiction of a crime. It does no harm whatever and is a manufactured "crime". Passing over a piece of asphalte at one speed or another does no harm whatever. None. To claim otherwise is at the least misguided and at worse a vested interest seeking to make money based on false evidence.

False evidence?

The evidence goes back to the 1960s and is clear until someone realised that there was easy money to be made from automatic penalty processes.

In short the safe way to set a speed limit so as to separate the vast majority of sensible drivers from the idiots that we all sometimes see (usually drunk etc in any case) is what is well known in the road safety industry as the 85th percentile, enforced with latitude and not radar. That way the majority remain safe and the stupid ones are shown for what they are.

Most accidents happen BELOW the speed limits - even the stupidly low ones.
Most accidents do NOT involve excessive speed.
Most accidents are caused by..... inattention (as any accident police)

Forcing low speed limits CAUSES inattention.

(The Lausanne autoroute problem is not one of speed, it is of driving too close (an enforced offence in Germany) - and one of the political replies above says he wants 100kph, that won't help and is naive, because he believes the claims about the cameras.)

In my region in 2014 there were nine deaths so I figured these must have been people driving too fast in the mountains. No. they were 100% in the local town! In the mountains there were none, so where was the last speed trap? In the mountains because in the towns you can’t catch many people speeding, because guess what? Most people are sensible.

WE THE PEOPLE are the ones who are responsible for taxes, business, families, society and all its facets, to make us all criminals is wrong. It is also foolish and will cause untold harm and misery to vast numbers of people who have done no harm at all, to anyone. Claiming that part of the process is “administrative” is mere trickery.

These methods are those of the right wing police states of last century, all of which states no longer exist. To divide the people is so foolish as to beggar belief.

To use fear and punishment as tools for social control is the same set of tools used by terrorists.

Many years ago I had the privilege to know a driver whose skill was the best I have ever seen.
By freak chance two months ago I had to watch as he had his keys taken from him by the police.
What was he doing? Where I come from he was exceeding the limit by 4mph (four miles an hour).
It was an open mountain road, dry, straight cliff to the right, precipice to the left, and the only short bit of road where it was even possible to do more than 80kph (you needed a fast car or a bike). Taking him off the road saved no one and I know damaged his business and the lives of the people who work for him.

So that is another point, punishing person A for doing no harm, is not and never will prevent person B from driving like an idiot. The point here is that the reduction of limits so that everyone breaks them means that the real problem drivers see this as a permit to drive even faster, because they see no one respects the law, which sets them free to go even faster.

Politicians appear to think that because people abide by the law that these same people will abide by unreasonable laws.
The British thought that and along came Ghandi.
The British thought that and the Americans revolted.
and so on.

The Swiss?
It's your turn, because I do not have a vote despite being subject to these draconian and unreasonable laws that save no one and will cause untold harm to the people - starting with the stress on our hearts as we live in fear of the radar lottery.

I am a grandad and my time is limited, and forty years safe driving and now the Swiss say I am a danger?
I think not.

You, the Swiss, are being taken for a ride. Regrettably most of the evidence is hidden from you because it is all in English.

Your first statistical weapon is Regression to The Mean (RTM) which always shows how camera location reductions are no more than variations within the normal curve.
Your second statistical weapon is to show that apparent drops in Switzerland claimed to be by reason of enforcement etc have happened elsewhere at the same time with no enforcement at all.
Your third statistical weapon is to compare results over a number of locations with and without cameras where you will find that drops happen even without cameras in place!

The real fact is that accidents tend to be random. Where they are not, the people know a place is dangerous and drive accordingly - so all that is necessary is to support and inform drivers who do not know a location, though most recognise danger: no one wants to crash, everyone wonders what happens in an accident and how to avoid it - it is this motive that should be informed and supported, instead of distracting us (limit signs everywhere) and boring us (limits too low) quite literally to death.

I have a team of engineers around the world and I can prove the Swiss evidence is rubbish, if you can get me the unaggregated data.

Stay Awake!

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ze_shark
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Re: About swiss road safety policies

Message par ze_shark » 12 oct. 2015 04:46

seven a écrit :
I have enquired in to the availability of Swiss accident data and have been informed I must pay 200 francs per hour and that they will only answer specific questions from the data. They have therefore refused to make public the essential data about accidents and keep it secret, except to publish as and how suits their purposes.
I am not sure what data you are referring to.
A wide body is available, from maps on deadly accident geographical location to the yearly stats published by BPA (Example). What essential data are you looking for ?
I was flashed yesterday doing 75kph in an 80. (yes! less than the limit). I went to Sion to complain and the judicaturist there could find no record and said we will wait and see.
No biggie, happens sometimes. If you were indeed doing 75, you won't be fined.
History shows that "the people" cannot be terrorised and will not submit to excessive punishment and fear, which are the tools the politicians have actually said they are using.
That's loaded language when applied to speed limits. All countries have speed limits and a punishment system if you do not respect them. Some are draconian in different ways. For instance, Switzerland, unlike most neighbours, Switzerland does not have a driving license point system. You can repeat minor offenses without any consequence other than paying the fine.
The Human Rights laws which even Switzerland has signed run counter to these regulations. The Via Sicura papers claim that their penalties are a special case, which means they are well aware they are breaking their own laws of proportionality.
Interesting, can you quote the source ?
The politicians are setting out to use the Police as weapons against the people and this will change the attitude of the people so that the police become the enemy. I discussed this with a policeman and clearly he does not want this to happen, but he has to follow orders (of the politicians).
Let's set blanket statements aside and do a reality check. Via Sicura was voted by the Parliament. No party dared to challenge the measure with a referendum. Why ? Because the vast majority of the population wants severe punishments against severe offenders. The only tyranny at play here is a democratic one, not the usual fantasy of a good people oppressed by a political elite.
The placement of radar traps in places where there is open road and it is clearly safe to make progress is and always will be where the police place the traps, because it is easier for them to acquire the statistics to say they are catching many (safe) drivers so they must be doing a good job.
Probably true, but cynically, we should celebrate the fact that speed cameras are concentrated in areas that are boring to drive anyway.
The secrecy of the location of traps is intended to evoke fear and to raise money at the same time. Claims that these are to prevent accidents are lies because to even claim to prevent accidents with speed traps you have to place them where people know about them or there is no deterrent - without deterrent there is no purpose except raising money from the innocent. Creating a general atmosphere of fear in society for doing no harm is plainly wrong.
Believe it or not, the general atmosphere of fear does not come from speed cameras, but aggressive behaviors on the road.
WE THE PEOPLE are the ones who are responsible for taxes, business, families, society and all its facets, to make us all criminals is wrong. It is also foolish and will cause untold harm and misery to vast numbers of people who have done no harm at all, to anyone. Claiming that part of the process is “administrative” is mere trickery.

These methods are those of the right wing police states of last century, all of which states no longer exist. To divide the people is so foolish as to beggar belief.

To use fear and punishment as tools for social control is the same set of tools used by terrorists.
This paranoid discourse could somehow be regurgitated in other countries, but in Switzerland, with our direct democracy, it simply does not apply.
The swiss people have an arsenal of democratic tools to change the constitution whenever they want. There is no political will because there is no majority behind such measures. People want severity for severe offenders, and Via Sicura addresses this expectation.
Politicians appear to think that because people abide by the law that these same people will abide by unreasonable laws.
The British thought that and along came Ghandi.
The British thought that and the Americans revolted.
and so on.
These are bold false equivalences. The premise that we are an oppressed people does not stand in our political system.
Stay Awake!
To which I would respond: chill.
Such a paranoid diatribe after being flashed below the speed limit without consequences ?
If you are an expat, take my advice: enjoy the good things (and there is no shortage in this country), and put up with those you like less.

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